Church security issues in Arkansas

WB
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 07:13 (193 days ago)

We have our church insurance with Church Mutual, a reputable company. I serve in several elected positions there so I have to be involved in matters such as this. Some of the busybodies were getting a little antsy about our policy we voted in to allow CCL holders to exercise there rights on church property. Never thought I'd be addressing matters like this in the church mush less transexual and homosexual issues. It's more of a liability exposure issue. They can entrap the church and cause serious financial hardships. The church is land dedicated for the sole purpose of worship.

Anyway a lady from Church Mutual came to advise us on gun policy and security issues in light of late hyperbole. She actually got teary over recounting her helpless "feelings" when her training class required her to get shot with NERF darts in a mock setting. They advise against self policing and really don't like, but as a last ditch advocate using retired or off duty police armed security. Not me man, I'm covering my butt and my family. I told everyone they can follow my lead if they want but MY family is moving and defensive at the same time, getting out of a crisis. We are self planning and acting, no matter what everyone else is doing.

We will have more internal meetings and so far the discussion is that we will train the congregation to hit the floor and move, not bunched up (that makes you a target rich group), but headed out. If you are not an active participant in a gunfight you need to keep your head down. I hope we can openly discuss this and ingrain it into all as a formal plan of action. No one actually knows who is armed any particular day with what. So if the balloon goes up, I'm standing and moving, engaging at the same time. I HOPE everyone else can stay down and move. I told the folks I'm getting to my kids no matter who is in my way, but I'm training them (at home) on what to do too.

Some of the congregation (mostly those "Decon'esses" - what my Pastor calls them lol) want some type of "Police" advisement. There just isn't any to be had, they train totally different. Not to hurt anyone's feelings but I can count the cops I hold in high esteem on my fingers. I had family in Law enforcement too. Times are different these days.

What do you guys think?

*and play nice so we don't get called down. Good discussions

WB
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 07:16 (193 days ago) @ WB

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WB

Grover Sr
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 07:57 (193 days ago) @ WB

I think you are spot on. I think it was Churchill who said "to fail to plan is to plan to fail". If you will remember the "conventional" insurance advice on 9/11 in the twin towers was "to shelter in place and await first responders". One company in one of the towers had it's own evacuation plan. Instead of waiting in place they evacuated when the first alarms went off, and suffered no casualties.

Lucky they were located below

Jk
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 12:04 (193 days ago) @ Grover Sr

Where the plane hit ,below the fire. Different story if they were above.

I hate to say it but the insurance lady

John W
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 09:22 (193 days ago) @ WB

is following what you can call company policy. I get the impression that they are more concerned about paying out a large sum of cash vs. having parish members being adequately defended.

I am reminded of the incident in the 1970's when an airline was hijacked and re-routed to Entebbe Airport in Kampala Uganda. The Israeli Special Forces went in and the hostages all hit the floor. Anyone standing was a terrorist and was gunned down.

I know it is horrible to say that especially in a house of worship but we live in interesting times. Ironically, when Massachusetts was the Masssachusetts Bay Colony the men of the congregation were required to be armed when going to service. In some ways, times have not changed.

Bear in mind I am not a security expert but I believe that as you stated in the recent past members of your church in good standing for three years are allowed to CCW in the building. Like many church services they are at set times. It may behoove you to get parish members to have a meeting where you organize your services. Say you sit in one corner of the church, a likeminded and armed member in another and so fort. That way all of the church area is protected.

One thought, a CCL is not a Security Officer License.

WB
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 11:27 (193 days ago) @ John W

It does not authorize you to be aggressive, not in Arkansas, but simply provides for self defense in a position of not being able to flee. You can shoot someone in your house but not on your front porch! Also if you are farther than about 10 ft. away they will argue that you did have a chance to flee and chose deadly force. It's screwy that way.

Our church would be one heck of a shoot out. Why some movie producer does not pick up an old western shootout story line and apply it to a modern church attack is a missed opportunity and so easy. Would make a heck of an interesting story line.

In Arizona we are able to stand our ground and not

Brent Foy
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 17:02 (192 days ago) @ WB

Required to flee. We are suppose to be able to shoot anyone that is in the process of hurting someone else, but who knows what will really happen, what the cops report will say or what the prosecutor will do or what the judge will do. I think all you can do is do what needs to be done and get a good lawyer. If I’ve saved the life of of my family, my self, or others, I’ll live with whatever happens I can’t take the time to second guess things.

Exactly

IC
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 21:37 (192 days ago) @ Brent Foy

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my family's safety would come first. I would carry a gun, no

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 10:55 (193 days ago) @ WB

matter what a bunch of self serving hypocrites say. Like somebody said here the insurance company is just thinking of not having to pay out any claims. They could give a shit less what happens to your family. I would have a gun on me, no matter what. If they don't like it, there are other churches. Family comes first.

I know John Taffin always carries and would bet that Jim

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 11:14 (193 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

Taylor does too. And there are not any other more decent people that I know of these days. If the church told them no guns, I would bet they would carry one anyway. Common sense and common decency has to come out ahead of bureaucratic bullshit.

AMEN!

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 11:21 (193 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

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Yes sir!

Jim Taylor
[subject]
Tuesday, March 13, 2018, 14:37 (193 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

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