.410 shotgun useless?!

WB
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 09:28 (93 days ago)

My son Roman posed the validity of the .410 shotgun lately. I was taken aback as it was such an important part of my early shooting. It was a big deal when you graduated to shooting a "shotgun" even though it was a 67 gauge. (Approx. bore sized balls to equal a yankee pound) I was only 5 yrs. old the first time I discharged a Mossberg bolt action single shot .410. It was a Federal paper 3" shell with #6 shot. The heavy metal Schlitz can was hammered impressively at 25 feet from the full choke. Shotguns were literally a blast.

The origins of the .410 actually go back to the .38/40 and .44/40 shot loads of two centuries past. The .44/40 won out probably due to it's popularity in varied carbine platforms. The .410 is cheap to load for, using half the powder and shot compared to the 20/12 gauge. However at the store don't be shocked if the price for a box of .410 is close to $1.50 a shot!

By 6 I was shooting a 20 gauge some and I remembered it really flattened my shoulder. A less enthusiastic shooter might have been turned away from shooting by the recoil. Roman was about ruined at 6 by me allowing him to shoot a light weight .410. He would not shoot anything but a .22 for a long time. Now he's out of control. The various .410 defense loads and slugs are a bit of a ballistic joke if you are true to yourself. A fellow I hunted with at HHC once time unloaded a 5-shot .410 full of disc loads on a goat from a very close range. He had to borrow a gun to finish the job. (There is more about his Elk and .30-378 WBY. too, finished with a .308) That told me all I needed to know. The "slug" that is shockingly legal in some states for deer is akin to a hot .380 ACP pistol load. So popular today with all the .45/.410 revolvers, and new AR/M94 lever type platforms, what a spread. I agree, a $1000 lever action .410 surely can't be a big seller. But I still think a good .410 has a place on the farm behind the door, ready for service within it's realm of capability. This side of bears or Indian raids it gets it done for small critters.

This is a link to an interesting article on the exact gun we had 60 yrs. ago. It was classified as my "mother's gun". We used it almost exclusively on the farm back then. It was ultimately stolen in 1979. It's pseudo replacement is a Brazilian copy 3-shot I'm currently working on and fabricating all brass cartridges that I can reload with a nail and pencil!

https://www.ssusa.org/content/classic-guns-mossberg-s-model-183-bolt-action-410-shotguns/

Eley Brothers had a .410 shell

IC
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 10:33 (93 days ago) @ WB

in their catalog in 1857. The .44/40 was introduced by Winchester in 1873.

That is interesting for sure. I must research it more.

WB
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 11:54 (92 days ago) @ IC

The "BB Cap" or first commercially available self contained cartridges were introduced in 1847 (if you can believe the internet) for parlor games! It evolved into the CB or "conical bullet" cap then the more modern rimfire .22 short ammo as we know it. Actually there was a brief time rimfire ruled the roost for all calibers as centrally fired ammo was developed. A friend of mine has some .45-70 Govt. that looks smooth bottom like a rimfire but is some early centerfire.

I thought the .410 shotshell 2" was connected to the "bicycle guns" that Marble's dominated for warding off feral dogs while cycling out in the country.

I've read several articles

IC
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 13:48 (92 days ago) @ WB

and they can't agree on the origin. Eley Brothers say they had a flysheet (1857) with a Lancaster pattern center fire and a pin fire .410 shell advertised.

I forgot about pinfire! They make reloadable pinfire

WB
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 15:30 (92 days ago) @ IC

Cases that use #11 percussion caps. Very interesting. That’s all European pre-American civil war stuff. Pinfire was somewhat popular during the war as civilian private purchase.

Right now the 410 ammo is about the most sought after

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 10:34 (93 days ago) @ WB

round we carry. When I opened the shop this morning I had an old gentleman waiting to get in. He wanted 410 shot shells, which we didn't have at the time. He whined about all the gun shops in town are out of it including the big box stores. We got a case of the 410 shotshells less than a week ago and they lasted maybe 2 days. Not sure exactly what the love affair with the 410 is but we get 2 or 3 people in every day asking for it, and it is almost non-existent from our distributors right now.

To make all brass .410 cases what do you think

WB
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 13:39 (92 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

would be the best parent case? I have used .303 British but they need to be way blown out and the web is a bit small in diameter. The .444 has a smallish rim (compared to a .410 shotshell) but I think it works.

.444 is close to proper diameter & length.

Jim Taylor
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 14:04 (92 days ago) @ WB

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For shorter shell use .44-40

Jim Taylor
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 14:05 (92 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

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Magtech sells .410 brass cases

Mark Wilson
[subject]
Friday, January 26, 2024, 14:58 (92 days ago) @ WB

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Full brass 410

AmBraCol ⌂, The Center Of God's Grace
[subject]
Saturday, January 27, 2024, 07:13 (92 days ago) @ WB

A lot will depend on your scattergun. My Boito works fine with the 444 Marlin case, at least as far as checking empty brass for extraction goes. I've not yet commandeered any of my brother's brass for the experiment, but it's got a big enough rim to be grasped by the singleshot's extractor.

However, Magtech (or as I prefer to remember them - CBC - Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos) makes full brass shells for the 410, 12 gauge and others as well, with the 24 gauge being snapped up by folks reforming them for use in their Martini's. They've been out of stock for years, though. Haven't checked recently, but hopefully they'll start trickling north again soon. Keep an eye on Midway, Ballistic Products and Buffalo Arms, three companies that at least still have them listed, albeit "unavailable" for now. The are in the 2 1/2" chambering as produced by Magtech.

--
I'm a peaceful man and prefer the pursuit of peaceful sports. Those involving teams and balls of any sort tend to be deleterious to one's body and promote violence by both spectators and participants.

The most widely used bore in the Amazon

AmBraCol ⌂, The Center Of God's Grace
[subject]
Saturday, January 27, 2024, 07:05 (92 days ago) @ WB

I grew up in the Amazon Basin. The "36" was THE most common shotgun in the jungles and sertão. The 20 was the pistolero's enforcer gauge and 12 bore was only seen in the hands of rich land owners. The 410 was mostly used in single shot break action shotguns. It was also mostly seen in its full brass, berdan primed, FFFg and jute fiber glory as the alternative paper hulls were notorious for swelling in the jungle humidity. A typical load would be a 38 spl case of FFFg sparked by a CBC berdan primer pushing a jute fiber wad behind three TTT (tres t) shot behind another wad of jute. Alleged patterns were pitiful at anything under near contact distance, but somehow or other they managed to put a huge dent in the fauna with these little blasters.

A typical scattergun of "36" "caliber" would be a rotting, rusty relic (even if only a couple years old) due to the common folk lore of "veneno" (poison) which was "known" to coat the inside of the bore and be transmitted to the shot as it rattled down that bore. This would induce the victim of the shot to die from poison, no faith being placed in the the effects of multiple ventilation apertures being opened in the target.

I learned to reload full brass shells with a Boito 32 gauge that belonged to an Alaskan that had purchased a parcel of land and was developing it during his winter breaks from welding up north. When he'd head back north to work he'd leave that old scattergun with me. We had 11 full brass shells (he'd lost one of the original dozen) and I loaded them "for onça" (jaguar) with a more potent load than was recommended by the manufacturers. I'd take a 24 gauge measure of Tupan powder and dump it in, followed by a wad of jute fiber hammered in with a dowel to compress it well. 9 TTT shot (they fitted nested like 00 buck in a 12 gauge) and then a wad of shredded paper to hold things in place. After firing the brass was readied for the next load by flipping the berdan primer out with the tip of a knife and a new primer tapped into place with the flat of the blade. I had a steel cup with a hole in it that allowed the tight tamping of the over powder wad.

So a few years ago I came across an old Boito singleshot like the one I grew up with. It followed me home and is now in the cache for when we're up north. It's in "36", but marked .410 so folks up north would have an idea what it was. But in my heart I know it's a "36" like accompanied countless garimperos and seringueros and others who walked the jungles of my youth. Someday I hope to obtain a box of CBC brass for it, for old time's sake.

--
I'm a peaceful man and prefer the pursuit of peaceful sports. Those involving teams and balls of any sort tend to be deleterious to one's body and promote violence by both spectators and participants.

9.3x74R is a match for 3” .410 when blown out.

steve todd
[subject]
Saturday, January 27, 2024, 10:45 (92 days ago) @ WB

Takes a little work to blow them out straight. Graf&Sons is where i got the brass. I use pistol primers in the rifle primer cases. There are YouTube videos for different methods of blowing out the shoulder and neck, and you’ll probably come up with your own technique. A .375 expander to start, with a lathe you could make up a couple more expanders to run the case neck up the rest of the way. Run up to .375, some wadding, some shot and a over shot card that’s 3/8” blows them out in a bolt action .410. I’m rambling again.

That may be the best for maximum performance

WB
[subject]
Monday, January 29, 2024, 10:22 (90 days ago) @ steve todd

The 9.3x74R brass is running about $60 for (25) cases delivered, new (Norma), that should last forever. I like using a tuft of Toilet tissue and hot glue for a top wad. Works fantastic. A protective wadding of some sort helps protect the pellets in the bore. I'd rather mess with plastic fouling than lead any day.

Graf&Sons is out of stock for 9.3x74R

steve todd
[subject]
Tuesday, January 30, 2024, 17:58 (88 days ago) @ WB

But $67.00 for 50 of the Privi cases when they get them again.

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