Simulating grown up conversation...

WB
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 10:04 (1485 days ago)

I'd never say the 1911 was obsolete, that is just stupid, it's not and never will be. I have at least (3) myself and love them. A friend and I were driving along and we began a discussion. 1911 lovers (I'm one too) are so passionate. Before we finished the topic his face was flush and I think he might have begun to tear up. He had stopped being scientifically objective and put up a wall.

Jeff Cooper did a lot to promote the 1911 (combat shooting disciplines as a science in general) from the late 1950's up through the 80's. The 1911 did not have much (any really?) competition anyway. But by the time Mr. Cooper passed in 2006 (fourteen years ago) he was a very old gentleman and many things have changed in the last 40 years. Were he alive today and just starting, say 35 yrs. of age, would he tout the 1911 platform? Seriously? Would he carry a 1970's designed Star PD for personal defense? Possible, but I'm not so sure. (BTW - I have and would again)

It's like trying to argue the point to a fellow who still drives his beloved Chevy 57' Bel-air. It's the greatest car there ever has been. But the soulless Camry has more HP, is much faster, gets 35 mpg, and will happily run 300,000 miles with basically no major maintenance. How can you begin to present an intelligent argument, fighting that level of passion?

The wonderful 1911 platform has basically (46) parts total, (7) in the barrel, locking, and recoil systems. But that barrel interfaces with two lug recesses carefully machined into the underpart of the slide, which is also influenced by the recoil plunger that forces the link to move upward in locking. A bushing in the slide is necessary, or some form of support. Feeding is influenced partly by feed ramp in the barrel but also part of that ramp on the frame too (unless a custom ramped barrel is used). Bottom line is there are a lot of things going on and many parts interfacing. Impressive engineering and you can't argue, it certainly does work as designed.

The modern wonder plastic piece has only (31) parts, that's 32% less total parts. The barrel and recoil system is comprised of (3) parts, only two if you count the captive assy. as only one part. The locking is via the mono-block wedged into the slide opening, pushed there by the recoil spring. No other support or bushing is needed or utilized, the barrel just hangs there, locked. Feeding is integral only with the barrel ramp. Other critical systems such as "grips" and mechanical sear locking "safeties", fire control systems, could be critiqued as well. They have taken over 100 years of knowledge and applied it using modern materials and methods. For all the "cheapness" and use of plastic, the piece exhibits sub 4 MOA "mechanical" accuracy from the basic service grade production. I can only speculate what the base 1911 might produce but it's more than 4 MOA, possibly several feet! Neither were envisioned as target arms but the mechanical engineering in performance is notable rather than moot.

We have not even begun to dive off into the considerations of capacity or reliability, under adverse conditions. No the 1911 is not obsolete, never will be. But there are some very amazing arms available to us today. Admittedly many will never be passionately coveted as the old slab-sides, but their performance and service will be noted by engineering history.

Did you mean "stimulating" Scotty?

ChrisG
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 10:18 (1485 days ago) @ WB

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There are 1911's...and then there are tool's. That's it.

Woody
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 10:26 (1485 days ago) @ ChrisG

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1911's will never die, but a few of the tools work very well

Rone
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 10:40 (1485 days ago) @ Woody

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I believe the forum average age is 56?

WB
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 12:42 (1485 days ago) @ Rone

I wonder where that point in age, the generation gap, is where younger folks wonder why? Why would these dusty old farts pine so loudly for an old relic?! Lol

I grew up with it, the 1911 mystique. I had to wait till I was 18 before I could obtain my own Series 70 Govt. model. I’ve never been without one in 39 years, don’t expect to either.

I am real fond of the Colt lightweight Commander for

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:10 (1485 days ago) @ WB

carrying (in the rare instance when I don't have the PD on) and for shooting I like the longslides. My AMT Longslide 45 has over 70,000 rounds thru it from several years of combat shooting plus a lot of rounds on practice. I am also fond of my 10mm Custom longslide for small to medium game hunting.

I've thought I saw a couple of Reeder LTW

WB
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:42 (1484 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

I have owned a lightweight Govt. model and it was really great. I believe almost a half pound lighter. Ditto the Alloy BHP and the little Star BKM.

The Commander has such a totally different feel compared to the Govt. model for only being 1/2" or so shorter. What a subtle difference can make. The same for your 6" Redhawks, the factory 5.5" feels clubby but the 6" changes everything.

I also have a couple 6" SA that are great improvements over the traditional 5.5" and fit in the same 5.5" holsters. Little changes can make big differences in feel.

I'm attempting to Standardize...

~JM~
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 15:40 (1484 days ago) @ WB

I owned an EAA Witness 45acp several years ago. I liked that pistol except for the DA/SA trigger. That was the last pistol with that type of action.

I now try to stick with pistols that either have a 1911 type SA action, or DA only much like a DA revolver.

I'm also trying to standardize on barrel length/sight plane lengths so my eye glasses will work.

1911

joepjs
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:42 (1484 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

I carried a 1911 I bought after I was commissioned in 1962 and gave it up for a Sig P220 in the 1980's when I was flying Helos for DOE. I retired in 1999 that time and gave it up, now I am sorry I gave up either one. But I was not as fortunate as I am now. I have lost the layer of sinew that once was in my hands, and I would suggest JT try weight lifting gloves or bicycle gloves when shooting. A hand surgeon taught me some exercises after he worked on one carpel tunnel I told him to forgo the treatment of the other as I felt the cure was worse than the illness there. Trigger finger pain can be massaged outfit caught early. I am only 81, I just learned to adapt. Sorry I never bought the PD though. Life is full of plusses and minuses, just concentrate on the great times and guns you had/have

I AM ALSO 81 BUT THE PROBLEM, AT

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:48 (1484 days ago) @ joepjs

LEAST ONE PROBLEM, IS I HAVE NO CARTILAGE LEFT TO SPEAK OF IN MY WRISTS AND MY FINGERS ARE NUMB..

also 81

joepjs
[subject]
Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 04:54 (1484 days ago) @ JT

first 2 fingers of rt hand numb due to leftover present from shingles, and carpel tunnel, etc, and the rest is Deputryn's Contracture, look it up, I feel honored getting it as it was common in Vikings. Maybe its from holding a sword so long!
anyway, I am in similar straights, and I use the weight lifters gloves and tight gloves other times to turn down the pain from the numbness.
For an easy exercise hold your hands apart facing each other. Imagine they are two persons, bowing to each other, and move them in a bow from the middle to each other. 10 or 15 times, 3 sets. Other exercise, clench fists, and release, same count.

I too at 59 have the Viking curse.

Sid R
[subject]
Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 05:08 (1484 days ago) @ joepjs

knobs are only annoying at this point but I'm sure when I get older the arthritis of my mechanicing days and minor gun restorations. will hit. It's not bad now accept in the morning.

LONGSLIDES ARE LIKE 7-1/2" SAAs

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:44 (1484 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

SO MUCH EASIER TO SHOOT.

I agree, never had a lightweight until the Ruger, but the

SPB
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:43 (1484 days ago) @ WB

old commanders and lightweight commanders are just about perfect.

NO 56 IS THE AVERAGE AGE OF

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:49 (1484 days ago) @ WB

MY BOOTS.

I think he has it correctly.

Jim Taylor
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 11:12 (1485 days ago) @ ChrisG

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That may be...

ChrisG
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 12:52 (1485 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

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Lol, yes. I re-read everything but that.

WB
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 12:35 (1485 days ago) @ ChrisG

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The problem with the 1911

Jim Taylor
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 10:46 (1485 days ago) @ WB

is you can never brag that your dog ate it...

[image]

Putting aside the # of parts and the question

Amede
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 10:54 (1485 days ago) @ WB

of reliability. I find that the 1911 has better ergonomics(for me). Also I have found that people shoot them better one handed than the newer striker fired options. I have several friends that define the word Glockophile. Yet each of them will admit to shooting a 1911 better overall one handed, strong or week hand. It seems to be to be more of a natural pointer. Kinda like an 1860 Colt, bring it up and its there. And being that its single action on the trigger doesnt hurt either. Less trigger travel.

WHEN YOU GET AS OLD AS KEITH AND COOPER WERE AND

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 11:22 (1485 days ago) @ WB

I AM, YOU DON'T TEND TO CHANGE IDEAS OR OPINIONS. AFTER 100+ YEARS THE 1911 IS STILL THE STANDARD BY WHICH ALL OTHER SEMI-AUTOS ARE JUDGED, THERE ARE MANY EXCELLENT TOOLS AMONG THE POLYMER PISTOLS BUT THEY ARE JUST THAT, TOOLS NOT WORKS OF ART. THE 1911, COLT SAA AND S&W .44 MAGNUM CAN HANG ON THE WALL IN THE BEST OF MUSEUMS.

NOTE THE DATES OF THESE THREE:1911, 1873, 1907,

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 11:30 (1485 days ago) @ JT

EXCELLENCE LASTS FOREVER.

thanks for that John. I will keep my 1911s and my

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 11:58 (1485 days ago) @ JT

'86 Bronco and WB can keep his Kahr and his Camry, neither of which have any soul.

AND MY '97 CHEVY 4X4

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:10 (1485 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

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I have yet to see a 4X4 pick up that didn't have class

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:14 (1485 days ago) @ JT

or character (usually covered in mud). I have a '95 GMC 4X4 pick up that I am fond of too. Colleen can't drive it without squealing the tires leaving rubber or throwing gravel. Guess it's a woman thing.

sorta on the same subject, when i was a senior in high

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:29 (1484 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

school my uncle who was only a few years older than me went to a special auction in Nashville of police cars and bought a '58 Chevy that was supposedly the high sheriff's personal chase car. It had belonged to Sheriff Leslie Jett and had some big whoop de do engine in it. The main thing it had that I had never seen before and never have since was the transmission. It had 4 on the column. The 4 on the floor was just getting popular and was something new but Jett has apparently asked for 4 on the column. It was really weird to watch my uncle shift into reverse, which put the lever almost straight up in the air behind the steering wheel.

My uncle was kinda my hero back then as he drove fast cars and spent a lot of time bedding high school girls. A couple of years later after I got into radio and was working at a radio station in Paducah Kentucky I bought a white on white '58 Chevy. White car with white rolled and pleated leather seats and white carpet and would run like a scalded cat. Then when the 64 1/2 Mustang came out I had to have one of them and the '58 Chevy went bye bye. Good memories.

I HAD A '58 CHEVY AND A WIFE AND BABY

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:46 (1484 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

O THE WAY--SO IT WAS A STANDARD SIX-CYLINDER TWO-DOOR.

1958 was the first year of the legendary 409

Mark Wilson
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 14:28 (1484 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

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Since you are speaking

Tom
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 12:12 (1485 days ago) @ JT

of excellence lasting forever, don't forget about 1958.

1958 what?

Gary Reeder
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 12:46 (1485 days ago) @ Tom

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I was born.

Tom
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:05 (1485 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

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MOST IMPORTANT IN 1958 WAS

JT
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:12 (1485 days ago) @ Tom

I MET DIAMOND DOT.

There ya go, two

Tom
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Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 15:31 (1484 days ago) @ JT

important events in 1958.

I've carried the 1911

IC
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 12:21 (1485 days ago) @ WB

and bet my life on it. I never will with a Glock. Just my opinion. As JT said, old habits are hard to break. Besides, I like 57 Chevys.

I remember you saying you never warmed to the M9 Beretta.

WB
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 14:29 (1484 days ago) @ IC

I can see that. It's not bad to me. I have one of those too. It's huge but light. That massive wide grip makes it shoot like a .22 RF. I've never seen one that did not shoot extremely well. It is universally well liked at my house by the ladies. Maybe that's not good. My wife absolutely hates Glocks for herself, they torque terribly in her hand. She much prefers her 3" 657 or a snubby J-frame. She struggles with the slide on a 1911, not a big fan.

I didn't like the Beretta,

IC
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 17:09 (1484 days ago) @ WB

but I still shot expert with it.

Growing up the only Semi Auto

Sid R
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 13:35 (1484 days ago) @ WB

I can remember loving the Ruger MK I when I was young. Then later I was all about the single action. It was only after the last 15 years that I came to love the 1911. Still like it over my Glock and S&W. Heck I've only owned one double action. Can't get past the single action as my favorite.

In defense of some of the younger guys

Blake
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 16:05 (1484 days ago) @ WB

Some are well informed. I am a fan of the Star bkm as well as the 1911. Love the Star pd as well but it doesn’t fit my hand very well. At my LGS where I get my transfers done, the young guys (late 20’s early 30’s) always offer to give $50 over what I pay for the Star BKM’s because they know what it is. They learn that stuff from the older guys in the business.

A while back we had an active shooter

John W
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 18:04 (1484 days ago) @ WB

training session at work.

The Massachusetts State Police arrived and the head of the STOP team was there to lead the training.

Guess what he was carrying?

A 1911 in 45 ACP

I chatted with him and asked why they used the 1911. He stated that they all carried 1911's that have been accurized. The officer told me that he very well may have to do a head shot and he needs an accurate platform to do so.

I can see that wisdom.

I know some like the Glock but ever since I bought a Ruger SR1911 I am finding that it is on my side more often than not. I know the 10mm auto is a tad of an oddball but what I like about it is that all types of ammunition I have used seems to shoot point of aim. I did not expect such out of the box.

So I can see the place of the 1911. That officer made sense. I am not sure if you could get the same accuracy with the Glock " Safe Action" trigger as you could with an accurized 1911. I forgot what model of 1911 he carried but it was in Fobus holster.

I've flirted with the 1911 off and on. I never stick...

Stuart in GA
[subject]
Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 20:25 (1484 days ago) @ WB

...with it, though.

I would suggest that "my 1911" is German P-series SIG's. I always seem to come back to the P220 and P226. P228's and P225's have been in the mix from time to time.

I "get" the 1911, but it's not for me.

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